The conversation moves from theory to specific stone and marble. Connors walks listeners through St. Mary Major — its fifth-century mosaics, its legend of a bell that guided a lost shepherdess, and Pope Francis's choice to be buried there — before contrasting two Roman chapels feet apart: the opulent Borghese Chapel and Michelangelo's stark, minimalist Sforza Chapel. Waldrop connects this tension to his own work designing a new minimalist chapel at Loyola University, and Connors closes with a personal Vienna anecdote: two visits to the same Jesuit church, one dazzled by Baroque illusion, one quietly undone by a stranger singing alone in the dark.